Rape is never the victims fault

[theatokos]

Women say some rape victims should take the blame

WHAT? I don't even need to read this entire article to know that women have internalized the hateful misogony of the patriarchy and suffer from self-loathing ideology. Why do women hate each other like this? Rape is NEVER the victim's fault. Even if you're comatose from drinking or you're walking naked down the street. Women make loads of stupid decisions all the time. And there are other consequences of the above actions: alcohol poisoning and the flu, perhaps. But rape? It is not a man's duty to 'punish' me for my stupid actions. Women and men may judge women who make stupid choices and think 'they got what they deserved', but that's not what it is about is it? No. It's about men thinking women are sex objects, that any woman who is passive enough is theirs for taking, that women are sub-human and do not have the dignity that men have. In cases of rape the blame is ALWAYS on the assailant. It is the perpetrator who cannot keep his hands (and other bits) to himself. It is HIS lack of self-control and his lack of honor for other living creatures.

I was date raped when I was 20. I take responsibility for my stupidness. I acknowledge that I was weak and had poor boundaries. I did not report it because it was so.... murky. I was up for fooling around. I was not up for sex. I said no. He didn't listen. We were in my bed. Am I to blame? If you say yes, defriend me right now.

Comments

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

My experience is healed. I recognize that are men who are the victims and women who do the perpetrating, but in the latter case it is statistically so small as to not to be relevant to this discussion. And yes, patriarchal culture is a problem. Many women are 'complicit in their own oppression' but that does still not mean they are to blame. It's hard to pin things on 'the patriarchy' because to some extent that's all of us, in one or another.

Unless I specifically write about The Men, it is never appropriate to ask 'what about the men' when it comes to feminism. When discussing rape, in general, I will never concede that it is necessary to describe the rapist in a s/he context. Now, if I start writing about sexual abuse, then I think it is relevant to do so. But in terms of rape - it is a crisis among women, perpetrated by men.

[gwydion1987.livejournal.com]

Is something less relevant because it happens to a minority? I'm just asking.

Other questions:
If feminism is about equality and the liberty to express one's Self freely (and that is the feminism I am pursueing), how can it not be about men or other genders as well? How can this be limited to be a "women's issue"? After all, don't we live in a culture of divers genders/sexualities/identities? What worth is a feminism that fights only for the rights and liberty of one of these if all of these are suppressed and enchained by Patriarchy? Aren't even men victims of a system that expects them and trains them to be mechanical, emotionsless, "straight" robots?

We just might have a generation problem here.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

Rape IS a women's issue if it is a woman being raped. If it's a man being raped then it is a men's issue.

I'm interested that you suggest this discussion may be confused by age. I am 66 & our host is half my age & yet we are in agreement!

[erinya.livejournal.com]

But if men are doing the raping, isn't that a "men's issue" too? If women are doing the raping, wouldn't that be a "woman's issue"? I think that framing rape as a "women's issue" does exactly the same thing as our customary language surrounding rape, which focuses on the woman ("she was raped" or "she was raped by...") rather than the perpetrator. It lets the rapist off the hook. Hell no rape is not just a "women's issue," the discussion of which is relegated to women's studies and women's spaces. It should be just as much a "men's issue."

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

I agree, but I don't think gwydion is referring to men's issues in that sense. I agree that rape actually needs to quit being a woman's issue and become a men's issue. I WISH.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

I think you are missing the point. Rape overall is of course a humanitarian issue. But in the context of this debate, here on ewigweibliche's LJ it is about MEN raping WOMEN & therefore it is A WOMEN'S ISSUE. Sorry if it sounds like I'm shouting at you, but it's important not to confuse the 'issue' by diluting it.

We're all on the same side ~ if we call ourselves feminists we have to put women & children first. In this particular instance, I don't care about the men. I want to discuss what we began ~ debate the serious crime of male on female rape.

[erinya.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I guess my post-gender feminism really has no place in this discussion. Bowing out.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

Oh don't bow out!

I want to be post-gender! In theory I am, but I don't see the reality of it yet. Maybe in SF. But the rest of the world? Still figuring out that women aren't property or meat sacks.

[erinya.livejournal.com]

Sure, and I think post-gender isn't quite the right term for what I am. I don't think that gender shouldn't matter or that it's not an important part of our identities. And I don't by any means think it DOESN'T matter now. I know that sexism is very real. I just am less and less interested in feminism as a women-only space. I think that feminism as it is now often enforces gender binaries and polices gender identity and I think that is totally counterproductive.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

Yes in theory, but I disagree in real lived life. I don't think feminism is or ought to be a women's only space, but I think dragging in 'what about the men' to a little post like mine is complicating the point with theory.

[erinya.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry. I'll be quiet then.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. And this is the important ISSUE here. A 'little' post highlighted a current issue that got several of us fired up. A perfect opportunity to debate it. And we end up diluting that topic instead of putting our valuable, feminist energy into exploring what the debate was intended to be about.

It happens all the time & is IMV counterproductive.

[gwydion1987.livejournal.com]

See, this is were I would disagree for I think that both are first and foremost human issues. Human issues that are about devaluating, oppression and arrogance - the core structures of patriarchy so to speak. While we need laws against rape and direct support for the victims (which might necessarily be in part gender-specific), it are these core structures that need to be addressed and changed as well regardless of the victims gender. At least in my point of view.

What I am suggesting in regards to "generation" is, that there are different kinds of feminism that were developed at different times and that your arguments remind me of that, what I would call the second-wave feminism (70s-80s), while I am more a third-wave/postmodern/deconstructive feminist (90s-now). There is place for both and both are important for the shifts we are intending to make! It's just our strategies and some basic assumptions that seem to vary - which is a valueable thing in and off itself I think. Diversity is valueable. It just makes it harder to find a consensus in theory and sometimes practice, but I guess we have to live with that from time to time.

bb*
Gwydion

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

Oh I am definitely not a second wave feminist (in age or inclination), though I do honor my foremothers in that 'wave'. I've had a conversation recently about how waves can be damaging to general feminist unity. I think the feminist waves, like real waves, ebb and flow into one another. I am firmly in the third wave camp. I have issues with the postmodern definition, even though I work toward a post-gender, post-feminist world, I don't think the basic, average lived experience is there yet.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

Reiterating here, but this discussion about how women turn on other women with regard to their 'responsibility' as victims of rape. This is what I want to discuss here so I'm sorry but I'm not exploring other issues however important they are.

And, as an ex Rape Crisis Counsellor, I'd like to hear us calling these women 'survivors' as much as possible. It is how the majority of them prefer to be viewed.

As to the 'Wave' thing ~ Goddess help us all if we are determined to be bound by these distinctions. Learn to surf & save feminism from drowning itself in a sea of semantics!

BTW, so-called second wave feminism began life in the 60's & is still going strong! Diversity is valuable, but is yet another discussion for another time & another place.

I'm still pissed off by the fact that according to a very recent survey a majority of women believe "some rape victims should take responsibility for what happened to them." This is a MASSIVE feminist issue & what this post was addressing!

Respect & BB

[gwydion1987.livejournal.com]

And, as an ex Rape Crisis Counsellor, I'd like to hear us calling these women 'survivors' as much as possible. It is how the majority of them prefer to be viewed.

Thank you! I will keep that in mind.

[hrafntinna.livejournal.com]

My feminism doesn't only fight for the rights of women. My objection to the "what about the men" in such a context is that it derails a conversation that needs to happen and all too often is shut down by men as speakers or subjects.

To my mind, it's like bursting into a geometry classroom where it's just been taught that the angles of a triangle add up to 180 and saying, "not if it's drawn on the surface of a sphere!" While that fact is perfectly true and very important, the class on Euclidean geometry will grind to a total halt if it's taken up right there.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

YES!!! Hey you men ~ hijacking our debates is NOT the answer. Don't become part of the problem! Don't make it about you! Support & honour our grievance, hear our anger, get off the fence & explain to your male friends exactly what the word 'NO' means!

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

Yes. Your brilliance never fails.

[gwydion1987.livejournal.com]

My objection to the "what about the men" in such a context is that it derails a conversation that needs to happen and all too often is shut down by men as speakers or subjects.

Yes, I can understand that and it's a problematic issue. Though while there are times and places that NEED TO BE "women only", I think there are men who are willing to give women and their needs more space, who are willing to be true allies and who in my pov shouldn't be excluded from process nor thinking. That's all I'm saying.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

My feminism is quite radical - I see true feminism as liberating all beings, male and female and every point inbetween. But asking 'what about the men?' in the context of women (women blaming other women for the rape of women) is not about the men. Too often feminist discussions get derailed by men who don't want to be seen as The Villian, or have some quibble with a detail. Men are the norm; I feel justified in leaving them out as a tiny percentage of victims in this discussion.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

Absolutely agree.