Dr. Tiller

[theatokos]

I'm having a hard time with Dr. Tiller's murder. I have missed it on the news cycles, thankfully, but it is all over the internet. Having built and birthed my own child I am more sensitive to this issue than I was 2 years ago. I have heard from thoughtful, though dogmatic, individuals that a person cannot be both pro-life and pro-choice, but I think these politicized terms are a false dichotomy. I claim both. Maybe out of a desire to piss off each side. I hate the abortion debate with the power of a thousand white hot suns. It in no way addresses the issues at hand. Yes, abortion is killing the unborn. But an eight week old fetus is not the same entity as a 29 week baby. If you mourn the passing of a first trimester fetus, then I think you ought to be vegetarian. Squid are more intelligent than a fetus. If it's the potential for human life you are concerned for, then why aren't you doing more to support the lives that exist here and now? Approximately 25% of all pregnancies spontaneously miscarry in the first trimester. Are these women murderers or culpable in some way?

And yet, I would weep if one of my close friends chose to abort. I have had a good friend, pregnant, wonder if she should keep her baby, and I have talked with Adam about offering to adopt the baby if she would consent to carry it to term.

Abortion sucks. It is something that I wish no woman ever had to choose. Sure, there are some stupid women out there who are careless and use it as birth control. Sure. But I'll take them as collateral damage to protect the rights of women who are raped, who have no health insurance and are told their child will have severe disabilities, whose partners are abusive and know that her home is no place for a child, who are starting out in life and are partnerless, who didn't have access to birth control to begin with.

There are plenty of professions I don't agree with, plenty of individuals whose morals and choices disgust me. Do I think they deserve to die? No, I do not. Those who rejoice in Dr. Tiller's murder are misguided and cruel. They are as cruel as the man they claimed deserve to die.

ETA: Because of the murder issue, I am coming down hard on the "pro-life" side of things, but I also am not a fan of the "pro-choice" side of politics. When NOW or other sorts of "feminist" organizations start branching out and doing more for women's health in general then perhaps I'll be inclined to give them money. Women's health includes more than just the right to abort. It includes advocating for pre- and post-natal care for women, it involves pressing for the rights of midwives and homebirth, it involves working for access to birth control and education. Etcetera.

Comments

[kittyx-x.livejournal.com]

I despise the hypocricy of it. This Doctor performed terminations, thus he was called a murderer, & was killed by a/some pro-life supporters..who are now themselves murderers....how does that make any sense?!

[seaivy.livejournal.com]

My feminist and NOW friends advocate for all the things you mention. Several are nurses. But while all of those things need support their existence is not threatened by legal maneuvers.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

That's true, and I understand that. But I think the right sees feminist organizations as only focused on abortion and that perception drives a wedge between people who might otherwise advocate together on other items. I may be wishful thinking too.

[amyura.livejournal.com]

The right sees what it wants to see, though. The problem is that the establishment pro-life organizations (not ALL people who are anti-abortion, obviously) aren't really pro-life-- they're anti-sex. That's really the only way to explain the Official Pro-Life Position™ on the issues as a whole: how else could someone be simultaneously against abortion, birth control, comprehensive sex education and welfare programs? How else could someone be against abortion because it's murder, but want to allow exceptions in the cases of rape and incest (isn't that still killing? is it because the mother didn't willingly have sex that she's allowed an out?)?

I've gone from one extreme to the other and am now somewhere in the middle on the whole thing. In high school I was hardcore pro-choice. Hardcore, gave money to PP, signed petitions. I gradually grew more pro-life, and my feelings on what abortion is haven't changed since I became pro-life.

The real turning point for me in the other direction, though, was reading the text of that South Dakota law, the one that allowed for exceptions in the cases of rape and incest. It was repulsive, and reading it made me sick at how intrusive government agencies would have been into the medical profession. THAT is when I truly understood what "right to privacy" meant and why it must include procedures that I myself find repugnant.

Biologically, there is no way to separate a pregnant mother and her unborn child. Which means the law must necessarily favor the rights of one over the other. It's sad that it has to be that way, but in the end it really is about control. I don't think I could EVER have an abortion, under ANY circumstances.....but the thought of how the government would have to act to ensure that I don't is fucking chilling.

[blessed-oak.livejournal.com]

"How else could someone be against abortion because it's murder, but want to allow exceptions in the cases of rape and incest (isn't that still killing? is it because the mother didn't willingly have sex that she's allowed an out?)?"

My recollection is that many on the pro-life side assented to these exceptions when the pro-choice side kept bringing these cases up to increase opposition to anti-abortion laws. It became clear that no law would ever pass without these exceptions.

But there was also huge debate within the pro-life side about whether it was right to support a law that only restricted some abortions, and thus protected many babies (in their view), or whether morally they could only support a law that restricted all abortions, even if it meant that it would never pass.

But your point about the Pro-Life Establishment being anti-sex is right on the money, for many of them.

"Biologically, there is no way to separate a pregnant mother and her unborn child. Which means the law must necessarily favor the rights of one over the other."

Exactly - that was so well put.

I'd just like to add that I have been in discussions with friends on both sides of the issue, who really do care about what is right, and are very sure of their moral positions, and who fundamentally disagree. People are variously sure it's a human person with rights at conception/viability/third trimester/birth/even later, and there is no way to prove any one position as correct.

Either we have the killing of many innocent human lives, or we have the needless damage done to many women's lives. The law is utterly helpless here, and I am coming to the conclusion that it really is best left to individual consciences.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

"The law is utterly helpless here, and I am coming to the conclusion that it really is best left to individual consciences."

Except that we need the law to protect us and provide us the freedom to exercise what our consciences will allow.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

*we need the law to protect us and provide us the freedom to exercise what our consciences will allow.

Quite ~ & blessed_oak's point is that the law is helpless is well made. I'd go further & say, it's hopeless.

Unless absolute control of their bodies is given over to women with no interference on any level whatsoever from men, be they the lawmakers, the medics or the fathers, this issue will remain one that destroys women's lives & still puts many of them in danger.

Termination is never an easy option but I would draw everyone's attention to what I wrote in my own post yesterday: Women do not become pregnant on purpose if they do not want a baby.

[msmidge.livejournal.com]

I have been really sad about the state of our society more generally--that we can have this nutcase who has free access to guns to kill someone at church as an act of terrorism, and then TV "news" gives all kinds of coverage to people saying the murderer was right and "Christian" scripture supports what he did.

It's not like late term abortion is something that women can get for convenience. It's hard to access, and it's not pleasant to undergo, and in many cases it's the least-worst choice for someone with a pregnancy gone severely wrong. So I hate the abortion debate too, and I don't believe the debate is really even about abortion per se. It's about what women are, what they are supposed to be, and what that means about children as well (among other things, I'm sure).

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

YES.

[introducingyael.livejournal.com]

But an eight week old fetus is not the same entity as a 29 week baby. If you mourn the passing of a first trimester fetus, then I think you ought to be vegetarian. Squid are more intelligent than a fetus. If it's the potential for human life you are concerned for, then why aren't you doing more to support the lives that exist here and now? Approximately 25% of all pregnancies spontaneously miscarry in the first trimester. Are these women murderers or culpable in some way?

For me, at least, mourning a miscarriage was/is mourning the loss of potential, of the *plan*, of the "I'm due in xyz, even if nobody else knows it yet," even the loss of, "Oh, I can't eat/do that because I'm pregnant." The most though, and maybe it's just me, is that I know my babies when I'm pregnant. I can feel their life inside of me and I have known every time what I'm carrying. After miscarrying, that presense was gone and there was a real difference from when it was there.
So, I guess it's personal experience more than anything that makes me believe that life begins at conception and a great deal of consideration should be made with regards to the creation, continuation or termination of that life.
(The following refers only to when a woman chooses to have sex)From a feminist standpoint, what bothers me greatly is the lack of power women take over their bodies with regards to becoming pregnant. The term, "reproductive freedom," implies (to me) that the freedom to choose materializes only after she has chosen a partner, chosen to be alone with him, chosen not to use two types of birth control, and chosen to have intercourse...After all these potential choices she's "stuck," with abortion? I think society and media so devalue women that it's really easy to believe that.

I don't exactly know where I was going with this. Anyway, I never agreed with what Dr. Tiller did, but I don't think terrorism solves anything.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

*mourning a miscarriage was/is mourning the loss of potential

Quite ~ termination is traumatic & for many women, a huge loss regardless of whether or not it's a relief.

Thank you for sharing.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

First, I want to say that I in no way meant to imply that I think a miscarriage is less heartbreaking or meaningful in the first trimester because the baby is a fetus. Not at all. If I ever miscarry I will be devstated. But I do think that is more about the potential than the actuality.

I also believe life begins at conception. To argue otherwise is to deny reality. But that life is not equal with the life that you or I or our kids have. Mold is alive, kittens are alive, a zygote is alive - but they are not the same as a full on human being.

"After all these potential choices she's "stuck," with abortion? I think society and media so devalue women that it's really easy to believe that." I agree. The abortion debate is less about actually meeting the needs of women and children and more about policing women and their choices. A woman cannot win. She can hardly ever make a good choice. Many women who do make "good" choices (say, monogamy, birth control, full consent, etc) and get pregnant by accident. Wouldn't it be great to live in a world where families were actually supported? Where we all had wonderful health care? Where we all had access to loving day care? Where we all lived in healthy homes? So many of the reasons women choose abortion have to do with circumstances that almost have nothing to do with the pregnancy itself.

Women are so undervalued that no matter what we choose it seems that we can never win.

[introducingyael.livejournal.com]

Re: your first two paragraphs.
I agree 100%. The difference in feeling between losing Adelle Shayna and losing a pregnancy are so massive that they are incalculable. I'm over the miscarriage. I'll never be over Shiny.
Basically everything you wrote has be nodding and saying "Uh-huh. Yep. This."

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

*Women are so undervalued that no matter what we choose it seems that we can never win.

Indeed. In which case, perhaps the choice of the word, 'stupid' is unworthy of those who may not be lucky enough to have had the roles models women such as you & I were gifted?

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

See my response to honey rider below.

[amyura.livejournal.com]

This is really well-written; I completely agree.

[honeyrider.livejournal.com]

i think i'm undergoing a profound change because lines such as "there are some stupid women out there who are careless and use it as birth control", lines that used to come out of my own mouth, are starting to bother me. women use abortion as birth control because abortion *IS* birth control. it doesn't become anymore or less birth control depending on whether a woman aborts one fetus or 10, and a woman has as much right to 10 abortions as she does to 1. also, it's unnecessary to call women who have multiple abortions "stupid." any time we reduce a population in such a way we automatically miss all the nuances of their individual situations and i think we do women a great injustice when we don't take into consideration the varying personal circumstances of the woman as an individual.

for some women abortion does suck. but it doesn't suck for others. i had 2 abortions, one when i was 19 [i miscarried and my body wouldn't expel the fetus. i would have had an abortion, by standard definition, if i didn't miscarry] and one when i was in my mid-20s. the one at 19 didn't suck at all. i knew i did not want to have a baby and i was immensely grateful for the opportunity to get rid of it. i never cried or felt any emotional turmoil over my decision. the only things i cried about was the pain my decision caused my partner and the lack of bodily integrity a woman experiences in the arms of hospital staff. the decision to have an abortion i had in my 20s was far more difficult. i took an RU486 during the 7th week of pregnancy. there was much emotional turmoil involved. in retrospect however, i'm not ashamed to admit that i do a happy dance when i think about the choice i made. why am i telling you this? because i think it's important to recognize that abortion doesn't suck for every woman, that some women won't end up depressed and crying for months post-abortion, and that women who don't have a difficult time making the decision aren't callous monsters. there's pressure put on women to feel this immense grief when they chose to abort. needless to say, if a woman feels grief, that's absolutely okay, however it is just as okay to feel fine.

finally, what happened to dr. tiller saddens and angers me. a man who is supposed to stand for life walked into church and took a life of a man who performed procedures that are legal under the laws of this land. there are hordes of people screaming "tiller was hitler! tiller deserved what was coming to him!" and all i can do is shake my head and wonder wtf is wrong with the world.

sorry for the long comment. it's been brewing.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

IMV you have nothing to apologise for. This is a profoundly honest response to an issue which is probably the most emotional one we, as women, discuss. I agree with virtually everything you have had the courage to say.

Thank you

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

I wish women discussed it more among themselves. Every time I have had the privilege to hear women's stories it has expanded my compassion and understanding. I think the first time some one every admitted having an abortion to me I think I was in my late 20s. Until then the issue had always been framed in politics, abstractions, and Other People. Personal stories and discussion really nuance this "debate."

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

No need to apologize for a long comment! I am grateful to you for calling me out on a poor phrase. Because you're right: abortion *is* birth control at its most base level. I was responding to a stereotype flung around by the Right, and I was not very clear about my intention.

I do think abortion sucks. That is not to say that women need to react or respond in a certain way. I don't like the soft pro-life stance where compassion (which really seems to me more like pity) is only available for women who grieve their decision. Abortion sucks because in a perfect world (which doesn't exist and never will) women would never have to experience unwanted pregnancy, would never have to deal with the complicated decision process - where? how? what if so and so finds out? the possible shame, the possible defense, the crap medical system, etc.

I know many many women who have had abortions for a variety of reasons. I also know women who were made to carry unwanted/unintended pregnancies to term. Thank you for sharing your story with me, but I am sad that you shared it in an act of defense. You should never have to defend this sort of decision, and I'm sorry that you felt you needed to here. Maybe that's not where it came from, and I hope that's the case.

[honeyrider.livejournal.com]

i don't disagree that abortion in itself sucks. like you said, in a perfect world women would never have to experience unwanted pregnancy. needless to say, i'd love for that to be the case but it's not going to happen. when i said that abortion sucks/doesn't suck, i was referring strictly to the different ways women experience abortion, not as a political/social issue, but as a personal encounter. from the perspective of choice, abortion doesn't suck.

there was no defense what so ever in my comment. i went off on a bit of tangent in order to stress the importance of not putting pressure on women to grieve their choice. i never grieved my first choice and while i grieved the second, there's not an ounce of shame or regret there. i felt the need to share that because in the context of my comment it would have been elusive not to.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

I felt you made yourself utterly clear & reiterate ~ it takes courage to display such a level of honesty.

*from the perspective of choice, abortion doesn't suck. I'd add, sometimes choice is no choice at a. The catch-22 nature of some of the 'choices' may often be responsible for the heartache women experience when contemplating whether or not to undergo termination.

[hrafntinna.livejournal.com]

It's tricky, this distinction - non-distinction between birth control and abortion. I think groups advocating for women's rights and autonomy try to maintain a boundary there in able to be able to fight for pre-fertilization birth control without having to deal with the cases against post-fertilization birth control. It's probably a necessary tactical move.

But it is all birth control, yes, and I too have noticed really that the stereotype of the bad woman who relies on abortion as her only or frequent form of birth control is a load of crap. Not everyone can use hormonal or chemical forms of birth control, and then if the condom breaks ... oh well. That's not irresponsibility, it's just bad luck.

[eelsalad.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this. It's great when people who aren't rabid ideologues on the subject talk about abortion, if only cos it shows that y'all exist! The only way the abortion debate will change is if more folks who don't fit neatly into either box speak up.

There is a beautiful essay on the subject of being both pro-life and pro-choice here (http://naamah-darling.livejournal.com/152739.html), which you may find of interest.