Gun play

[theatokos]

This is a post for all those born male and for mothers of males.

If you are a male, did you play with guns? Did you turn non-gun items into imaginary guns? Do you think this is something innate in males? If not, where did you learn this behaviour from? As an adult male now do you have any parenting perspectives on this, or advice for the new mama of a male?

For mothers of males, do your sons play with guns or have gun play? If so, at what age did this start? Does this bother you? If so, how do you discourage this? Any thoughts for a new mama?

Comments

[chiv.livejournal.com]

Cartoons. Specifically Transformers, Thundercats and Ulyssees 31.

I was frankly more likely to turn a broom handle into a quarterstaff than I was a to make a gun and at least with toy/pretend guns you're unlikely to [accidentally] brain your best friend.

Not being a parent I have to be very careful about what I say here and it's one of the reasons I don't post to these topics very often.

However a word of warning be careful just how much your fear of guns and violencse ostracises him from his friends and peers. I have no doubt that he will be aware that guns are bad and violence is bad bt will still want to get mixed up in make believe games of heroes and villains of whatever genre.
I have a big problem with any parent who will see their kids acting out pretend fights and immediately wading into the fray and pulling their kid out of it. I was a frequent victim of that, my mum or dad puling me out of a game when they thought it was getting too involved. It got to the point where I just didn't bother getting into these games as inevitably I'd get into trouble be it immediately or after school when my brother had grassed me up. It led to a lot of lonely recesses and a lot of bullying which in turn, I'm sure, led me to becoming more violent when I actually decided to fight back against the bullies.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

I value your opinion here, even if you're not a parent! Never having been a boy I know there are bound to be times when I just won't "get it" when raising Bennett. Of course, he could grow up to be a show tune singing diva, who knows?

I plan to be pretty involved in what my kid/s watch and read. More so about the watching. We don't own a tv, but love media - my issue is often with the advertising! Right now that's more avoidable. I hope to encourage dialog - although I'm a hot head about feminist issues, so no doubt I'll traumatize B with that.

I was a girl that LOVED/S to hit people. Sadly, I was a bully to my little sister. I think some of us are just born more volatile than others, male or female - boys are just encouraged and allowed more than girls. I asked these questions of our male nanny and he also said that he struggled with his parents getting too involved in the fun play and his socialising. Even though he wasn't keen on it, sometimes you just needed to play what your friends wanted to play! This is good information.

I also know that I can't (and I don't want to) control everything in my son's life. But this seems particularly tricky to me.

[thekitchenvixen.livejournal.com]

From Zack:

Yes I played Squirt Guns, Nerf Guns, and eventually BB Guns around age 14. I did turn non-gun items into imaginary guns (such as sticks, paper guns, etc). It is probably not something that is innate in males. I probably learned the behavior from the media, tv, toys, movies, videogames. I don't really have any advice on it.

From Me:

As for Indra and Niyama I will not forbid things that resemble guns (squirt guns or nerf guns) However, BB Guns can actually hurt people so they will not be allowed. As well as pretend guns that look real, I will explain why those items entice fear in others because of how dangerous they are. I know a lot of people who played with pretend guns (INCLUDING MYSELF and my husband) quite a bit who turned out to be very gentle and respectful and would not keep a gun in their home.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

I loathe BB guns. If my kid wanted a gun that shot things we might then consider actually learning to use and shoot real guns, at range, with teachers, etc.

I'm wary of the forbidding thing too, for that is sure to entice some kids even more.

guns

[robroys.livejournal.com]

Growing up in AK I cannot quite remember when I started with toy guns. I do remember going shooting for the first time... I needed glasses, but my vision was not that bad, but bad enough not to shoot very well. I was branded a reader not a hunter...

Still I learned guns are not toys in a big way. Something about a shotgun being blasted into the muskeg a few feet away really impressed me to not play with guns.

As far as toy guns, you should be more concerned about whether or not you want to raise a candy assed commie!

Squirt guns and water balloons are easily the best toys EVER. Will it lead to another Timothy McVeigh? I think not.

Bugs Bunny Road Runner hour was the best thing ever btw.

Re: guns

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

I certainly don't think all gun play is bad. But I'm conscious of it, you know? I'm going to have to parse all this: tv, violent play, etc. It's a part of life, so I'm not freaked. But I thought I'd get some input.

I know growing up around gun owners/users I knew that guns were tools for adults and not play things. Maybe we'll end up somewhere where this is a part of the community and it will imprint upon Bennett too. I also loved the Bugs Bunny Road Runner stuff.

As for raising a candy-assed commie.... well, too each their own.

[ladyartemisa.livejournal.com]

i wasnt a boy but i made my own guns out of anything i could find. i was a gun nut.
kate is already doing it.
it has nothing to do with sex.

[raving-liberal.livejournal.com]

Agreed. We made bows and arrows out of everything and enacted some pretty bloody battle scenes!

[erinya.livejournal.com]

I wasn't a big gun girl but oh man did I love my swords. Plastic or improvised. Am non-violent today, possibly to a fault.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

No, maybe I shouldn't have limited it to just males, but they do tend to be the more "gun prone" and according to Adam and my nanny, there is more pressure to engage in that kind of play.

However, I was quite the violent little girl. I looooooved to hit and hit with things.

[mindycl.livejournal.com]

My 3 1/2 year old routinely makes guns of out Legos, Clics and Morphuns, and comes to tell me he made a "shpritzer" (spray gun) and is shpritzing on me. And he goes P-ts! P-ts! and "sprays" me. LOL. THe Chasidic kids' version of a gun LOL!

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

Ha! Yeah, I think water guns are fun, so will we allow those? Oh probably.

[msmidge.livejournal.com]

Sam has started doing something gun-like but I'm not sure if he means it to be a gun or what. He takes any stick-like item and points it at whatever and makes a shhhh! noise.

But he also uses stick-like items as conductor-batons, so who knows. He loves to conduct--closes his eyes and everything!

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

A conductor! Yay! I think humans innately want power, but guns per se are learned. And I don't think power is necessarily bad. It will be interesting to see what Bennett gravitates to.

Maybe Sam is a wizard in training.

[bloodfever.livejournal.com]

I'm not a boy, obv, but growing up my sister and I spent at least 50% of our leisure time with my male cousins of similar age. We did more explorer-type things...riding bikes/climbing trees/crawling around in the canal/etc. In summer we spent a lot of time in the water and playing with water pistols, but it was always very literal - the intent was to wet the other person, not role-playing violence per se. We all watched tv with guns & gun violence, but never recreated it in play. We recreated violence in the form of wrestling, mostly.

As far as ninja goes, I would hope he has a similar experience. Water pistols are just an efficient way to spray water, and guns don't really factor into play. I have serious reservations about giving children any kind of toy weapon to play with, regardless of gender. While I can't control what he does with other children (once he reaches school age), I can make sure that he understands that real guns are dangerous and violence has consequences.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

I agree that communication is of the utmost importance. It's interesting to hear everyone's feedback. What a hot topic! But it also shows that all people play with power some how.

[gramina.livejournal.com]

Um... Not a boy (*doublechecks*), not a mother, but my sister and I played cops and robbers when I was little -- say, somewhere between 4 and 9, because of where we were living?

We made "guns" out of sticks or fingers, and the only rule was that we could only point the play-guns at people who were *also playing,* because -- the BIG RULE about guns -- *You never, ever, ever, *ever* point a gun at anything you're not prepared to kill.* If that's a fictional character in your game, fine; but if it's someone who's not playing, then it's not ok.

I still have that rule well enough embedded in my backbrain that if I'm holding a water pistol and someone I'm not planning to squirt passes through my range-of-fire (I mean, water), I point the water pistol at the ground.

FWIW, and all that.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

No, this is good! I'm really interested in this. Maybe I shouldn't have been so narrow in my appeal.

[raving-liberal.livejournal.com]

*You never, ever, ever, *ever* point a gun at anything you're not prepared to kill.* If that's a fictional character in your game, fine; but if it's someone who's not playing, then it's not ok.


YES! This is a very important rule of weapons, be they real or play.

guns

[https://me.yahoo.com/a/Gwb2W.Y62dfG7c0V6pYxX3S4U9T5cDQ- (from livejournal.com)]

Well, I grew up with guns as a child, and I still have guns. I was never a gun nut as a child, never played the "pew pew" toy gun thing, although I loved any toy that could shoot a projectile, from the toy plastic disc guns to the ping pong ball popper things. Not because they were violent, but because the act of making it work was fascinating. I think it would be a mistake to underestimate the cognitive development issues in projectile play... children in every culture partake of it. Learning to throw a ball, a dart, shoot an arrow, or shoot a gun is something that is very difficult to learn off the cuff.

I am the guy who grew up in a pacifist church, remains a pacifist, owns firearms, and fiercely defends the second amendment. These are complex issues. I think every child should take a course in gun safety and basic marksmanship. Part of the fascination is with the unknown and the forbidden & dangerous. Basic gun safety was drilled into me as a youth and I could no more point a gun at another person casually than I could forget to hold my breath underwater. Also, remember that substance abuse is far more closely associated with violence than guns are... the biggest thing I would say is not to imagine gun play as some looming iceberg of violent thoughts.

When kids play with guns, they are dreaming of some sort of glory, largely sold to them as part of a long-standing implicit cultural need to prepare youth to embrace military service. (that's a whole other issue). Kids never play games around shooting their spouse over who took the last hit of meth, or holding up a liquor store. I think parents who obsess over play guns, yet let their kids push each other around, or fight with their spouse in the home, are completely whacked. I think people should worry more about demonstrating and living out non-violent lives and functional methods of dealing with conflict.

Jay

Re: guns

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

I am so fascinated at the assumptions people have for my being curious about ideas around gun play. Jay, you should know me well enough to know that I don't assume that gun play will lead to domestic violence or holding up liquor stores. But I'm curious about the role of gun play. I see it more as culturally sanctioned power play in male children. Looking at the comments, girls too have "violent" play, and I think finding safe outlets for our power and physicality is a natural and important part of developing.

Obviously, Adam and I will do our best to raise Bennett to deal with conflict in non-violent ways. I don't think we will encourage gun play, but nor will we forbid it. Forbidding is powerful stuff and often back fires.

[lopezuna.livejournal.com]

Don't remember playing with guns (other than water pistols) but my sisters and I definitely had fun with swords, bow-and-arrows and light sabres. And of course the knights-in-armor Playmobil, complete with armored horses, spears, lances and daggers. Now I'm getting all misty and nostalgic for my 1970s childhood. I hope my kid has it so good.

Story about guns and gender: An Israeli friend showed me a photo of his baby sister on basic training during her military service. Every conscript is issued with a serious weapon (an Uzi?) which they are supposed to keep with them at all times (including in the shower). My friend's sister had covered her gun with little stickers of hearts and flowers, to make it a bit more "cosy," just as she would have done with a pencil case.

[snowcalla.livejournal.com]

I didn't have toy guns in the house when J was little because guns are NOT toys. But he made a gun out of almost anything. I gave him dolls - they were hugged, cared for, shot, beaten up, "karate" moves practiced on. J's best friend was his female cousin. Given the same toys they played with them differently. J wanted to hit and smash and fight. Sarah didn't.

It didn't bother me. Why should it? As long as J learned to not hit others, not break things, to take turns and to share - why should I impose my will to try to change the person that he is? Why should I make my son a social experiment? And why should I try to associate "bad" with "gun"? Guns aren't bad.

I had the Annie Oakley outfit with toy guns.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

Perhaps my wording of discourage made me sound like I'm afraid that gunplay necessarily equals bad and violent kids. I don't mean that, but I am interested in how others have navigated this issue. I am not afraid of guns, because I'm like you, guns aren't toys, you want to shoot a gun, let's go get a real gun and learn real gun safety. But I see a socialized aggression that is considered acceptibly expressed through toy guns. That bothers me. I do think B is going to need to learn about hitting, because he's like me and looooves to hit already. I think it's an outlet for enthusiasm.

I hope you don't think that I'm making my child a social experiment. Maybe I'm underslept and sensitive this morning (I'm most definitely underslept).

[(Anonymous)]

As the sister of the above I can attest to her violent streaks, as being the younger sibling I often felt the brunt of this behavior!
I find water guns and etc, as long as they look like toys, are okay. I fine play guns that look like prototypes of real guns not okay, and irresponible. But I find its the parental involvement factor that decides which path playing with guns will take kids on. Also kids that torture, and harm animals as kids are the most likely to grow up with violent tendacies.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

I love you, Sis, and I'm sorry for being such a nasty bully. I think I needed to be channeled better, especially when I was really young. I had a lot of energy! I hope to be more aware of this if B takes after me in this regard. I also think your real-ish vs pretend guns is a good idea.

[eelsalad.livejournal.com]

I grew up with gun toys, though not a lot of 'em. I think the ones I had mostly were gifts from outside-the-family folks. But as soon as I had my own money, I was all over the series of capguns Disneyland makes, and they look like real guns from the days of swashbucklers. Well, they did. This was before they started faking them up.

I bought myself an old-school NES back in the day, too -- the one that came with Duck Hunt and the zapper gun. And I made pistols with my fingers when playing with the neighbor kids (though I was just as likely to put on my riding boots and cape, then announce I was Darth Vader and that a stick or something was my light saber, FFRZZZZZZZ!).

I don't think the attraction of gunplay/swordplay is anything innate in males. But then, my views on gender and the innateness of gender traits are pretty radical, so what do I know. :)

At any rate, my folks didn't forbid gun-toys in the house, but didn't encourage them either. That seems to have worked out pretty well. As a side note, it was my NRA-membership-toting relatives who taught me to shoot and taught me gun safety, not my folks. I think learning gun safety with real guns is a good idea for anybody of just about any age.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

The innate in that question was really just bait. I think our gender ideas are probably pretty similarly radical!

[mz-seshet.livejournal.com]

I wish I had time to read through your 49 REPLIES!! cuz, I hate repeating stuff...

I was a firm believer in not having my son play with toy guns...So funny, I moved from LA (a no gun time) to Santa Cruz (a gun time) where I encountered more play dates/friends with toy guns. It blew my mind.

Anyways, not only did my non-media exposed son still turn any old stick or long pointy object into a gun anyways, it became such a taboo in SC, when everyone else could, I realized I was headed for a great disaster. I changed my tactic and allowed toy guns.

Every child is different. And as a girl, my favorite play time was parking all my toy cars in painstakingly organized and reorganized "parking lots". Not only is that not typical girl play, I don't think that's typical kid play! But, I do think many many boys will naturally gravitate towards gun play.

After allowing gun play, I still deterred it somewhat by engaging him in sword play instead. (yeah, maybe I'm hypocritical) And now that he's older I explain it usually takes skill to kill with a sword, it can take plain stupidity or ignorance to kill with a gun.

I know the studies that say kids cannot tell the difference between real and toy guns and so accidents happen unless there is a policy of abstinence. But, I think its more important to consider:
**Do you have a gun in the home? How is it kept?
**Every home/environment your child enters needs to be asked the same question. Whatever your personal policy is.
**If you allow gun play, when you are sure its a safe toy gun to play with there are still rules - never point it at any human or animal.

Oh - just wait till the age of nerf! At my son's last birthday party he got neon green and yellow machine guns and I don't even know what huge barreled rapid fire craziness!