Rape is never the victims fault

[theatokos]

Women say some rape victims should take the blame

WHAT? I don't even need to read this entire article to know that women have internalized the hateful misogony of the patriarchy and suffer from self-loathing ideology. Why do women hate each other like this? Rape is NEVER the victim's fault. Even if you're comatose from drinking or you're walking naked down the street. Women make loads of stupid decisions all the time. And there are other consequences of the above actions: alcohol poisoning and the flu, perhaps. But rape? It is not a man's duty to 'punish' me for my stupid actions. Women and men may judge women who make stupid choices and think 'they got what they deserved', but that's not what it is about is it? No. It's about men thinking women are sex objects, that any woman who is passive enough is theirs for taking, that women are sub-human and do not have the dignity that men have. In cases of rape the blame is ALWAYS on the assailant. It is the perpetrator who cannot keep his hands (and other bits) to himself. It is HIS lack of self-control and his lack of honor for other living creatures.

I was date raped when I was 20. I take responsibility for my stupidness. I acknowledge that I was weak and had poor boundaries. I did not report it because it was so.... murky. I was up for fooling around. I was not up for sex. I said no. He didn't listen. We were in my bed. Am I to blame? If you say yes, defriend me right now.

Comments

[msmidge.livejournal.com]

That's really disturbing. And I'm sorry that happened to you. How awful. Though if you had reported it, odds are the investigation would have been really frustrating and unsatisfactory. :/

One of the things that awakened me to radical feminism, I think, was learning about modesty laws in Judaism that exist because women shouldn't distract men with their voices or bodies by singing or wearing pants, because men can't control themselves. I was (and still am) outraged: if the men can't control themselves and the women can, why aren't the restrictions on *them*? And this is why I will never go to an orthodox synagogue.

[honeyrider.livejournal.com]

i'm always saddened by the number of women who believe that by drinking and wearing a mini skirt a woman is "asking for it" or "deserved what she got". i do see that women who consistently put themselves in dubious situation are not making smart decisions for their safety, but to think that someone out there truly things that rape is adequate punishment and acceptable consequence... sick.

i don't care how you act, what you wear, or where you are, rape is never ok. ever. ever.

ugh.

[gramina.livejournal.com]

"No" is such a simple, straightforward word. It doesn't seem open to much interpretation to me. "Stop" likewise.

I think that I have finally persuaded one of my partners that my default answer regarding sex is "yes, please! here?" ( ;) ) -- but until that point, which involved an fairly wide-ranging, detailed, pretty damned explicit conversation, he asked *every time.* Not just when we started, even, but explicitly before PiV intercourse regardless of what else I had already enthusiastically consented to. (And no -- believe me! -- that wasn't a mood-breaker!) And just for reference? That conversation was, I think, at least a year after we started having sex - maybe/probably more, since it's an LDR.

*That should be normal.* Not universal, maybe -- I'll settle, in most cases, for absolute respect of a verbal "No, stop" -- but normal.

[gwydion1987.livejournal.com]

"Rape is NEVER the victim's fault. (...) It is the perpetrator who cannot keep his hands (and other bits) to himself. It is HIS lack of self-control and his lack of honor for other living creatures."

YES, I'm with you here completely. Though I would like to add that HE or SHE (there are not just male rapists) has as well a huge lack of Selflove. This is not at all meant to excuse this kind of behavior (it's not and never excusable). Rapists are sick and need a lot of psychiatric help. I just have a huge problem with demonizing people and I think it is important to keep in mind, that it's the whole structure of the culture we are living in that creates that kind of illness. The first responsibility holds the rapist - yes! - but I see everyone of us as a culture to be partly responsible as well.

I'm very sorry for your experience and hope you find all the Power you need to heal it!

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

No! You were NOT to blame!

I heard this 'news item' on the radio this morning. I cannot believe that in the twenty-first century we are still having this offensive debate.

I agree with everything you have said ~ the only reason I didn't post about it myself was I guessed you, or someone else might.

*I take responsibility for my stupidness. And that is absolutely all you are required to do. Rape is about power & misogyny. Women are NOT responsible for a man's inability to control himself.

Thank you

[seaivy.livejournal.com]

And we live in a "Post- Feminist" world?
Patriarchal values are no longer the norm?
Doesn't seem so.
Young women must pick up the torch and raise your voices.
maybe some talk among young women about wise choices might be a good idea. If the culture isn't changing protection from those Patriarchal values is still necessary.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

Rape is neither an illness nor a sickness, it is a CRIME. And women are in no way whatsoever 'responsible' for male on female rape.

Our various cultures are dictated by patriarchal values which render men wholly responsible for rape, not women. Unless & until we change the patriarchal mindset, women are going to be raped. Fact.

[gwydion1987.livejournal.com]

(Do I have to mention that I am a feminist?)

Yes, rape is a crime, a rapist is a criminal and should be persecuted accordingly. The fact that the mind of the rapist was structured ( and in my understanding infected) by patriarchal values because he or she lives in a patriarchal culture, does NOT take the responsibility for his or her action from him/her. And it's NOT and NEVER the responsibility of the victim as a single being. Just to make that clear.
What I was hinting at is that a culture doesn't become patriarchal in and off itself. It is not something that is done to it, it is something that is brought forth and maintained by it (willingly or subconsciously). Therefore the values and ideas present in our culture are maintained and passed on by each and every person in that culture no matter what sex or gender they have. Therefore the responsibility for a rape is not completely one of the rapist hirself, but of the whole culture s/he is part of. And this culture is not something abstract or transzendent, it consists of each and every one of us. Therefore the resposibility to change the value systems and patterns of our culture is held by each and everyone of us as well. Do you get my point?

bb*
Gwydion

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

My experience is healed. I recognize that are men who are the victims and women who do the perpetrating, but in the latter case it is statistically so small as to not to be relevant to this discussion. And yes, patriarchal culture is a problem. Many women are 'complicit in their own oppression' but that does still not mean they are to blame. It's hard to pin things on 'the patriarchy' because to some extent that's all of us, in one or another.

Unless I specifically write about The Men, it is never appropriate to ask 'what about the men' when it comes to feminism. When discussing rape, in general, I will never concede that it is necessary to describe the rapist in a s/he context. Now, if I start writing about sexual abuse, then I think it is relevant to do so. But in terms of rape - it is a crisis among women, perpetrated by men.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

Any one who claims to live in a post-feminist world clearly isn't living in this one.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

I agree that 'we' maintain the culture of patriarchy, but grown adults *are* responsible for their own actions - raised in the patriarchy or not. An child abuser does not get off because she was abused as a child. A rapist IS responsible for his actions, patriarchy or no.

I think you're trying to be too vague and actually nice about things. People are responsible for their own actions (hm, how many times can I say that?). Society does shape us, but we can't hold hands in a circle and wish that all the badness would stop. We do our parts, by getting our shit together, by healing our own wounds, by treating others as we would be treated, by acting our justice in the world, by taking responsibility. Not every one is going to do these things, but they don't get to go around and fuck shit up for the rest of us.

[hrafntinna.livejournal.com]

Women do this because they want to feel in control. The logic is that if rape happens when a woman does X, then if they themselves don't do X, they will never be raped.

This culture assumes that the default condition of women is consenting: if we don't explicitly change it by verbalizing a NO, then people have the right to stick things into us. Imagine if men's bodily integrity were understood the same way:

"Well, Your Honor, he didn't SAY he didn't want me to shove my boot up his ass, so I figured it was okay."


And I'm so sorry. Too many of us have been there.

[gwydion1987.livejournal.com]

Is something less relevant because it happens to a minority? I'm just asking.

Other questions:
If feminism is about equality and the liberty to express one's Self freely (and that is the feminism I am pursueing), how can it not be about men or other genders as well? How can this be limited to be a "women's issue"? After all, don't we live in a culture of divers genders/sexualities/identities? What worth is a feminism that fights only for the rights and liberty of one of these if all of these are suppressed and enchained by Patriarchy? Aren't even men victims of a system that expects them and trains them to be mechanical, emotionsless, "straight" robots?

We just might have a generation problem here.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

I hear what you say but I can't agree with you 100%. The point about patriarchy is it is entrenched in our various cultures. To change it will take a shift in cultural mindsets & that is almost too massive to contemplate. In the meantime, each of us has a responsibility for our own actions regardless of the regime we live under.

And for some of us ~ children for instance ~ we have no power whatsoever to change anything. Trafficked women have no choice & no power. In any culture that seriously oppresses women there is little choice & no chance at all of changing anything.

[gwydion1987.livejournal.com]

I agree with you here. The rapist holds most of the resposibility, but s/he still has a history to be taken into account. Not to make hir into the "victim of circumstances" - just to see hir still as human being.
I don't want to make someone into "the Enemy", because there I see one of the roots of facism/sexism/racism etc.. Criminals are criminals, but they are not as far from you and me as we might like to think of them.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

No, the rapist is WHOLLY responsible. There can be no half measures.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

Absolutely agree.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

Rape IS a women's issue if it is a woman being raped. If it's a man being raped then it is a men's issue.

I'm interested that you suggest this discussion may be confused by age. I am 66 & our host is half my age & yet we are in agreement!

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

Quite.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

Brava!

[hrafntinna.livejournal.com]

My feminism doesn't only fight for the rights of women. My objection to the "what about the men" in such a context is that it derails a conversation that needs to happen and all too often is shut down by men as speakers or subjects.

To my mind, it's like bursting into a geometry classroom where it's just been taught that the angles of a triangle add up to 180 and saying, "not if it's drawn on the surface of a sphere!" While that fact is perfectly true and very important, the class on Euclidean geometry will grind to a total halt if it's taken up right there.

[erinya.livejournal.com]

I had an experience very similar to yours with a boyfriend who was an "ex" at the time. It was so murky, as you say, that not only didn't I report it, but I later dated him and slept with him again. Now I can't believe that I did that. :-P And you know why I did? Because (among other reasons) he convinced me that what happened was my fault and made me feel guilty for getting upset. He told me that "crying was blackmail"...

But I also blamed myself because I didn't want to feel like a victim or admit that at that moment, I had no control over what happened to me. I only really came to terms with what happened last year, when it became necessary for me to tell the story of what happened to another sex partner.

I do have to disagree with you that rape is always something that men do to women. I think there's a huge stigma for men about being victims of rape and that the idea that a man is "always up for it" and therefore can't be raped is harmful to everyone. To clarify: I do agree that the endemic societal problem is male-on-female rape. But the idea that women CAN'T rape men is a product of the same sick society that says women are always sexual objects and men are always sexual subjects. I agree with gwydion1987 that feminism is not just a single-gender concept and that rape is not just a woman's issue. Gender, like sexuality, can be very fluid. If rape can ONLY happen to women, what about genderqueer people? Trans men? Trans women? What about male-on-male or woman-on-woman rape? It happens. My point is that rape IS about power, but the power differential is not always as simple as man>woman.

I have definitely been in situations where the power differential is switched from normal gender expectations. In such situations, I consider it completely my responsibility to ensure that I have full consent for whatever I choose to do with the other person. And that's how it should be--the person who holds the power in the situation also holds the responsibility, regardless of what genitals/gender identities are involved.

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

YES!!! Hey you men ~ hijacking our debates is NOT the answer. Don't become part of the problem! Don't make it about you! Support & honour our grievance, hear our anger, get off the fence & explain to your male friends exactly what the word 'NO' means!

[readthisandweep.livejournal.com]

In fairness, I don't think ewigweibliche is saying that rape is always something that men do to women. She is saying that rape by men of women is specifically a women's issue & it doesn't help to mix up the two.

Of course rape of men is horrific & serious but this particular debate & the article that instigated it is about WOMEN being raped by MEN.

[ewigweibliche.livejournal.com]

I am not making any one out to be The Enemy. This post is not about scare tactics, nor do I think every man is a rapist until proven otherwise.